Professor Martin Green

[00:00]

Professor Martin Green, Chief Executive, Care England: …and we've got to recognise that the NHS and care are two interdependent systems, and actually the staff in care are supporting people with really complex health and social care needs. So it really is a profession, not a job.

Tobi Alli-Usman: Hi, I'm Tobi Alli-Usman, founder of Smooth Digital [Smooth Digital, now Prosperwell], and this is Tea with Tobi, the podcast that shines a light on the care sector and helps businesses, staff and care workers provide the very best care. The past year has been the most challenging in the history of the care sector. The UK care industry has experienced over 20,000 Covid-related deaths. Dozens of staff have died, and last June alone, nearly all of the Covid-19-related deaths were in care homes. So for season four, we decided we want to shine a spotlight on 2020.

We wanted to look at the timeline of events, analyse why 2020 was so difficult, highlight the incredible people who saved care and understand what needs to be done for the care industry going forward. In the upcoming season, we will hear from carers, academics, CEOs, industry leaders and analysts. We'll get a first-hand account of life on the front line, we'll review the effectiveness of the government's response, and we'll discuss how the care industry has been changed by the pandemic and what we can do to protect the sector for 2021. Most importantly, we will hear how the industry stood together in times of illness and social distancing, with solidarity and compassion. Please join me in this very special season of Tea with Tobi.

On this episode of the podcast, I sit down with Professor Martin Green of Care England. As chief executive of Care England for the past 15 years, it's safe to say Professor Martin Green is one of the most important and enduring voices in the UK care sector. In this episode, Professor Green highlights how the focus on the NHS may have negatively affected the care sector, I ask Martin about his difficult personal experience contracting Covid-19, and Professor Green pinpoints what the sector needs to do in the next ten years to be moving in the right direction. But first, let's start with how Professor Martin Green began his career in care.

A career in care

Tobi: Martin, thanks for joining us.

Martin: Thanks, Tobi.

Tobi: Awesome. Can you give the listeners a brief background on your career history and why you decided to choose a career in care?

[03:01]

Martin: Well, it goes back a really long way, actually. I started doing voluntary work at school, where I went to a disabled person's home. I guess it was about befriending, but it really got me thinking about social care. I also took sociology at university, so I began my academic life talking about social issues. Then I was lucky enough to get a job doing some research on older people's housing with care, and then I worked for Gingerbread, which was a single parents' charity. Then I got involved in the Age UK movement, and I was CEO of three Age UKs in London. Well, they were Age Concerns then. I then went to Uganda and worked on some projects around disabled people and HIV, and then I came back and worked again in charities for older people, and then I was lucky enough to be appointed to Care England.

Your listeners might not know that Care England is a representative body for care providers, so we're trying to improve the environment within which care providers can operate. Our members deliver services to older people and to people with learning disabilities, and we've also got some brain injury units and some mental health services. So I think we see how the whole agenda is being played out.

The sector before the pandemic

Tobi: I want to take you back to around December 2019. Where was the care sector at the time? What were the highest priorities, and what was on the agenda for Care England?

Martin: I guess the care agenda was always about how we got funding for quality care. That was one of our big issues. We were also trying to get the government to think about this in the longer term. There's been a lot of talk over many years, Tobi, as you'll well know, about funding reform, and way back we were talking about that. Our big priorities were about funding for good-quality care, how we could sustain the sector, and how we could reward and recognise the fantastic contribution of the workforce. We also had priorities about innovation and development: how do we develop the model, how do we get more technology into care, and how do we use data more effectively? Those were our big issues way back before the pandemic, which seems a tremendously long time ago now.

When Covid-19 arrived

Tobi: Absolutely. Do you remember the first time you heard the words Covid-19?

Martin: I do, partly because a friend of mine had been in China and came back and talked to me about it. In terms of where we heard it first in relation to care, if you remember, some really unfortunate things were happening in Spain and Italy. Care homes in particular were being affected, and they saw lots of people dying, but also lots of staff deserting their care homes. So I guess it was January that we first started to hear stories around this. But like many people, we thought it probably wouldn't really affect us, and we didn't see it as being global, so we weren't really understanding how incredibly difficult this was going to be, not only for the care sector but for everybody.

[06:01]

Tobi: And in that same period, did you have any loved ones or friends in care?

Martin: No, I didn't. My parents were in care just towards the end of their lives, but that was many years ago. I knew people who had family members in care services, so when it started to get more publicity, that obviously caused great concern. It was a particular concern to care providers, because they really wanted to make sure their care services were safe.

Tobi: When was the moment you realised Covid-19 was going to profoundly change the UK care sector?

Martin: I guess it started to become apparent around February or March time. But it was interesting, Tobi, that one of the key messages that came out of the government when we first started talking about Covid was a thought that it wasn't going to affect older people, and that they wouldn't be on the front line of the pandemic. I think that was why they focused on the NHS. They started to take people out of hospitals, and obviously care homes, particularly for older people, were the places where people were going. Of course, that created huge problems later.

Protect the NHS, and what it meant for care

Tobi: We're going to touch on some of those problems. But at that time, let's say early 2020, what was the initial guidance from the government?

Martin: The initial guidance was all about the NHS, and care was very much neglected in that. If you remember, the slogan at the start was: stay at home, protect the NHS, save lives. I don't think it was deliberate, but because the focus was on the NHS, care providers started to see their supply chains, particularly for things like PPE, dry up, because things were being diverted to the NHS. So we had a situation where, first of all, people did not acknowledge that older people, particularly older and frail people, were the most affected. And because the focus was on the NHS, a lot of the things we had relied on, like our supply chains, were also being disrupted. So in a way, it created the worst of all environments.

Tobi: And around that time the focus wasn't on the care sector, so what were the main concerns from your members at Care England? What were the key challenges they were bringing your way?

[09:00]

Martin: They were very much about how we access PPE. They were also very much about how we get access to primary care when we've got people who are sick in our services. One of the things that happened, because of this focus on the NHS, was that at the start of the pandemic a lot of primary care and support staff, so for example district nurses, OTs and physios, stopped going into care services, because their focus was all on the NHS. So when people were becoming ill, they didn't necessarily have the access to health services you would normally have had.

It was also interesting, Tobi, because it wasn't only about people who were sick because of Covid. Because there were no admissions, people who had things like urinary tract infections, or who may have had a fall or a mild stroke, didn't get the support they would normally have got from the NHS. All those things were starting to be noticed by care providers, and of course that meant there were some significant pressures. There were also pressures around staff who were becoming ill and then not being able to work, so of course we had the staffing pressures too.

The CARE badge

Tobi: I just want to take a step back for a second. In June 2019, you were involved in founding the CARE badge, and in January 2020 we had a representative from everyLIFE Technologies, who was also a founding member, join us on the show. They gave us an update saying there were 100,000 CARE badges in circulation at that time. Before I go on, I want to ask you a couple of questions about that. Can you give the listeners a bit of background on why the CARE badge was set up?

Martin: I guess it really came out of a speech I gave at the King's Fund, where I followed on from the Secretary of State. One of the things I said was that I'd noticed the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care was wearing an NHS badge, and what would happen if the Secretary of State for Transport wore a Virgin Trains badge? Everybody would say he was favouring one bit of his portfolio. Then Robin from everyLIFE Technologies came up to me afterwards and said, well, I think the problem is there's no identity for care.

I have to say, Robin is amazing. After that very brief conversation, within a week he had got some designs together, registered a community interest company and done a whole raft of things. Because of his energy and creativity, and the wonderful support all his colleagues at everyLIFE gave, we were able to establish and launch the CARE badge. It rapidly gained a lot of traction, and colleagues in other associations, such as the National Care Forum, the National Care Association and the United Kingdom Homecare Association, all supported it as well. So we were really well supported, we started to sell quite a lot of badges, and we were able to give quite a lot of money from the sale of those badges to The Care Workers' Charity and other charitable organisations.

[12:04]

We had some really lucky breaks. During the election campaign, the Prime Minister appeared wearing a CARE badge when he went to a couple of care homes, because a care provider gave him those badges, so he was publicly seen with the badge on. The Secretary of State similarly wore the badge, and the minister, Helen Whately, has been fantastic and really supportive of it. So Robin and I, and the other people involved in the CARE badge, decided we would hand over the intellectual property to the department, so that it became the identity for care. Partly because of Covid, it hasn't taken off quite as quickly as we would like, but we're all clear that we want an identity for care, and the CARE badge really provides us with that.

Tobi: Absolutely, and I was going to touch on that. I remember the daily briefings from late March to April. You'd put on the news, and at the time the focus was protect the NHS, protect the NHS, and people in the care sector felt left out, until that first day Matt Hancock wore the CARE badge. I went over to Twitter and LinkedIn, and the feeling from the comments was that they finally felt they were being represented, appreciated and recognised as the care sector. Do you remember that moment?

Martin: I do remember that moment, and I think it really was pivotal that people in senior positions started to wear it. Of course, it was great that the Prime Minister wore it on a couple of occasions as well. It really did give a signal to the care sector that they weren't forgotten. Now I guess our challenge is to turn that signal into tangible action and some clear outcomes for the care sector, particularly after the pandemic, where the sector, and particularly the staff, have been quite amazing. They are absolute heroes of this pandemic, and we must use that as our platform to change things when we get back to normal.

Tobi: Absolutely. I want to touch on the staff as well, and I'm going to come to that. Around the time of the first lockdown, supermarkets had priority hours in the morning for vulnerable people and key workers. I think some care staff had challenges getting in, because they weren't widely recognised as key workers. Am I right in saying the CARE badge was later used as a way for shop staff to recognise them as key workers, so they could actually get in?

[15:01]

Martin: Yes, it was, Tobi. One of the things that was really quite difficult at the start of the pandemic was that all the NHS staff were given priority, but of course a lot of social care staff were doing similar work. And a lot of social care staff, particularly those in domiciliary and community care, had to go shopping for their service users, so they needed access to the designated shopping times. It was a good opportunity to say, well, there is an identity for care, and the CARE badge can be a symbol that you are a key worker, just as people in the NHS are.

Care staff who went above and beyond

Tobi: Absolutely. So let's talk about the real heroes in this. Do you have any examples of sacrifices you're aware of, where care staff went above and beyond to provide the very best care?

Martin: There are so many examples. For instance, I heard of care staff who actually moved into the care home so they weren't at risk of bringing Covid into it. There were staff who covered for colleagues who were ill or shielding. There were really big efforts to make sure that, even though there couldn't be visiting, people still had connections with their families, so people brought in their own tablets so residents could stay connected with their loved ones. The number of people who went the extra mile was just phenomenal. I used to hear these stories every day, and they were stories of people going the extra mile who didn't themselves acknowledge what a fantastic contribution they were making. People who work in care are sometimes quite reticent about acknowledging their own contribution, so I think it's incumbent on the rest of us to really show that we appreciate what they do. We really want to see recognition for those amazing staff who gave so much, and are continuing to give so much, during this pandemic.

From clapping to tangible recognition

Tobi: On the subject of recognition, what were your thoughts on the Clap for Carers initiative?

Martin: Clap for Carers was a symbol, and an opportunity for people to say, I recognise what you do. But I think the next challenge is how we make that tangible. In Scotland and in Wales, people who work in care have had a bonus from the government as recognition for what they have done, and I really want to see the English government do that as well, so we can really start to say, we appreciate what you've done, and it's beyond a clap. It's tangible recognition. Then of course it has to be the platform for a proper approach to recognising care workers as professionals. We need skills and qualifications frameworks that are transferable, we need career escalators, and above all we need to move this from being a job paid at things like the minimum wage to being a profession that is acknowledged, respected and rewarded in line with the work people do.

[18:00]

Tobi: Just touching on that, we had a carer join us this season, and they mentioned there's a big stigma around the word carer. You're a founding member of the National Skills Academy for Social Care. Do you think we have a problem in the UK with recognising the competencies and skill levels of care workers?

Martin: Yes, I think we do. One of the things that's happened is that everybody in the public focuses on the NHS, and we've got to recognise that the NHS and care are two interdependent systems, and actually the staff in care are supporting people with really complex health and social care needs. So it really is a profession, not a job. We've just got to raise the flag for care and say how important it is when it comes to delivering really necessary support for people who are very complex in terms of their health and care needs.

The hardest moments of the past year

Tobi: I'm going to shift gears slightly. Over the last 12 months, you've been extremely busy. I've seen you on the news, and Care England have been giving briefings and making sense of all the communication coming from the government. What's been the most challenging moment over the last 12 months, from a personal perspective and from a professional perspective?

Martin: I think the most challenging moments were when we saw how many people had died in care services because of Covid. One of the challenges was that we had very out-of-date statistics from the ONS. When the ONS was telling us that 200-odd people had died, my statistics were telling me that 7,000 people had died. It was also very sad when I did virtual visits to care providers who had lost so many people, and the emotional impact on the staff, as well as the physical work they had to do, was enormous.

One of the things I don't think we acknowledge enough is that care workers form relationships with the people they support, sometimes over months and years, so losing those people is a bereavement for the staff. I don't think anybody recognised the emotional toll it took on care providers, and particularly care staff. We went through the first wave, we breathed again, and then of course we went into the second wave. Sometimes care services that didn't have outbreaks in the first wave had them in the second, and that was another really difficult thing for staff to deal with, because at the end of the first wave we thought there was light at the end of the tunnel, and then we had the next wave. So people were having emotional trauma heaped on them over a long period of time.

[21:02]

Of course, in care services we're used to losing people, because in many cases they are very old and very frail, but what we were seeing with Covid was several people dying within 24 hours of one another. We should also acknowledge that care staff died as well: people who showed their commitment, went into care services to support people who were very frail, then contracted Covid and died themselves. I really want us to think, when this is over, about how we give due recognition to those care staff and to the residents of care services who have died. And the other thing to say, Tobi, is that it's not only about older people. We had reports about people with learning disabilities and how much more likely they were to die of Covid. So this has had an impact right across the care sector, and we've got to find a way of acknowledging the contribution and respecting the people who have died.

Tobi: Absolutely. It's unbelievable what's happened over the last 12 months, and it's scary as well.

Professor Green articulates so well the enormous challenge both care staff and providers experienced in the past year. It's so easy to forget that care workers do care about the individuals they provide care for, and losing them can be personally heartbreaking. Coming up on the show, Professor Green and I talk through the occupancy challenges faced by care providers, and I ask Martin what he wants to see change within the sector in the next ten years. But first, I asked Martin about his experience contracting Covid-19.

Contracting Covid-19

Tobi: I hope you don't mind me sharing this. We were supposed to be recording this a couple of weeks back, and you contracted the virus yourself. Do you mind talking about that a little?

Martin: Yes. I think the thing I really found was how frightening it was. You're in a situation where you're starting to feel very ill, you have no energy, and your breathing starts to be laboured and difficult. It was also compounded for me because two very dear friends of mine died of Covid while I was ill. I also wasn't really prepared for it to go on as long as it did, and for it to have such an impact on energy levels, even some time afterwards. I feel I'm pretty much back to normal now, but I do get tired, and I think it is quite a long haul when you come out of it. I'm also conscious that some people have what's called long Covid, and they've been in a much worse position than me, because I do feel I'm coming out of it now. But there are people for whom the impact of Covid is lasting months, and possibly it will last years. So it's a very frightening condition.

Tobi: How long was your period?

[24:01]

Martin: I was really out of action for about a month. It seemed like a tremendously long time.

Tobi: It is a long time. But it's great to see you in good health.

Martin: Thanks.

Lessons for the sector and the system

Tobi: I'm going to switch gears a little. The last 12 months have been unbelievably tragic and horrible. Looking back, what would you say some of the lessons learned for the sector are?

Martin: I think the lessons learned are not only lessons for the sector. They're lessons for government and for the whole system. The first is that you should not focus on an institution, you should focus on people. This notion that we're protecting the NHS: well, actually, a lot of the people most at risk, and who subsequently died, were not in the NHS. We need to focus on the people in most need, not the organisations. There's also been a really big lesson about how we need much more connectivity across health and social care, and how we should all be reminding ourselves that our focus is on the people who need support.

One of the other things that's come across, which is actually quite positive, is that some things we'd tried to do seemed to take forever, and then because of Covid there was a fast track. For example, the Enhanced Health in Care Homes initiative, which had been a long time in gestation, was suddenly implemented. Likewise with data: there were all these endless hoops to jump through to get onto things like the Capacity Tracker. Suddenly, all those were swept away. There were no technical reasons why people couldn't get on it, they got on it, and that started to give us really clear data.

Another area relating to data: one of the things Covid showed us was how lacking in data social care was, and how some of the quangos around were not really fit for purpose. For example, in a technical age, the ONS was delivering us data that was ten days out of date. How is it possible in the 21st century, when we've got access to all this really up-to-date technology, for people not to be able to deliver much more real-time data? So there are some really important things around data.

[27:07]

One of the other things that's come out, and it links to what we talked about in relation to staffing, is how incredibly skilled the staff are. They managed the most complex situations, and they did it without the support networks you would normally have around you, like district nurses and the NHS. Interestingly, care staff were doing things to support people that they had always been told they couldn't do, and then suddenly, because there was nobody else there, they had to do them. So one of the things we've really understood is that the skill set in social care is quite high, and we need to formalise that into some kind of structure. When this is over, there will be some really big lessons, and we won't necessarily go back to business as usual. We need to make sure the positive lessons translate into improvements in the services for the people we support, and into recognising the incredible work, skills and competencies of the staff.

The occupancy challenge

Tobi: Absolutely. Before we take a look forward, one of the biggest concerns we're hearing from the providers we work with, and from the sector, is the occupancy challenge. Can you talk about that a little, and also about some of the things providers should be thinking about?

Martin: I think the occupancy issue is really significant. During Covid, we saw the loss of about 30,000 people who were in care settings, but we didn't have the same flow of people coming in, because the hospitals weren't working in the same way, there weren't social care departments enabling people to come into care, and families who might be furloughed were looking after their relatives rather than the relative needing to come into long-term care. Those various things put real pressure on occupancy. The other thing to say is that, because of the way this sector is funded, we have very small margins. The way you stay on the cusp of viability is through high levels of occupancy, and when those occupancy levels dip, it really throws the sustainability of the organisation into question.

We should also acknowledge that at the same time as occupancy and income levels have dipped, there have been enormous increases in costs. Even before free PPE came in, I was talking to care providers who were saying things like: at this point in the year, my normal PPE bill would be about £250,000, and I've just signed off £2.6 million. That was one care provider. So these are significant increases in cost.

[30:03]

In terms of what care providers need to do, I think there are several things. First of all, we need to send the message that we are open for business, though of course, until there's much less Covid in the general population, that's quite difficult. But there are ways to make sure people have had vaccinations and so on, and testing is another way to make sure people aren't Covid-positive when they come into care settings. The other thing I think the government needs to do is what the Welsh government has done, which is give a guaranteed occupancy level. Again, that would be a way of maintaining the stability of services through this crisis. So there are actions for providers and actions for government, and they need to be coordinated, and they need to be swift, because the sustainability issue is becoming very real for many providers.

Working with government

Tobi: In terms of government, how receptive has the government been to your suggestions over the last 12 months? It seems like there's much more receptiveness now, but how has it been over the year?

Martin: On some things, the government's been very receptive. A lot of this has been driven by the minister, Helen Whately, who has done a really fantastic job defending social care. She's had a bit of a bad press sometimes because of the soundbites from this interview or that interview, but I know how hard she's worked behind the scenes, and how many times social care has been at the table because of her intervention. Similarly, I think the Secretary of State has done quite a lot to make sure social care is not left out, though of course his primary focus was, and always will be, the NHS.

So there have been several things. For example, we did a lot of lobbying, as did other associations, on the fact that at the start of the pandemic the government gave £3.2 billion to local authorities, but Meg Hillier's Public Accounts Committee showed that only £0.5 billion of that had reached the front line. So we lobbied for more, and we got the Infection Control Fund. That was a tangible way more money was put into the sector. We've also worked with the government on some of the policies and procedures and how they're presented, because at the start of the pandemic some of the quangos delivering advice, people like Public Health England, didn't know the sector well enough. What that produced was endless changes in the advice: reiterations of the advice ten times a week. So we were trying to get to some really simple, clear messages, and we offered to help with some of that, and I think the department was pretty receptive. So there have been some tangible ways our intervention has helped, hopefully the sector, but hopefully the department as well.

Avoiding a repeat of 2020

Tobi: Awesome. We're recording this in March 2021, and we're currently in a lockdown, but the roadmap out of lockdown has just been announced. What kind of reform do you think the care sector needs to stop 2021 being like 2020, and what should we be doing to make sure we protect the sector and the people being cared for as much as possible this time around?

[33:06]

Martin: One of the things that has been quite interesting is the whole issue of visiting. We should acknowledge that care providers only stopped visiting because of their fear that Covid would come into the home, and the consequences for their residents. It's quite bizarre, in a way, that the Prime Minister talks about being focused on data, not dates, and yet the reinstatement of visiting is very much focused on a given date. The things that have been helpful are testing and, of course, the vaccination programme, but I think we need to be very cautious about how we open up social care, so that it doesn't go into a third wave of Covid.

In terms of sustainability, there has got to be some support for things like the occupancy deficit. There's also got to be support for things like insurance. You'll have heard that some insurance providers have completely come out of the social care market, and we've seen people have enormous increases in their premiums. In one case, one of my members reported a 640% increase in his insurance premium. So some of those supplementary things need to be dealt with. There also needs to be an understanding about staffing, because shielding and quarantine have caused big problems for staffing care services. I'd like to see much more proactivity about how we recruit, train and develop the new workforce. A lot of people who may have found themselves out of a job in retail might have the interpersonal skills that are good for care, and with some training and support, they might be able to craft a new career for life in the care sector rather than in retail. But again, we need coordinated action on all these things.

Tobi: I also agree on that last point about recruitment. We're seeing a lot of providers now pick up care workers from hospitality and airline staff, and they have the same skills. I think the myth is being dispelled among the general public that you have to have previous experience or qualifications, because providers give training. So that's been a positive.

A vision for the next ten years

Tobi: Now, we've touched on the past and the present, and I'm keen to get your insight on the future. Ten years from now, what type of reform would you like to see in the care sector?

Martin: The first thing I think we've got to do is craft a new vision for the care sector. So often we talk about the money, but we don't really understand what care does, what its outcomes are, and what an impact it makes on people's lives. So we need to craft a new vision.

[36:07]

I would like to see a care sector that works on people's assets, not their deficits. At the moment, the way the system works, you only get support when you're in a crisis, and I think we've got to move some of that upstream. I also think there's real potential for the care home to become a hub for the management of long-term conditions in a local area: not only providing residential care, but perhaps a range of other services to people who live locally, who might, for example, be caring for somebody living with dementia, a brain injury or a physical disability. The care sector could offer some of that support. That would provide support for the locality, and it could provide extra income for the care sector. It would also be a good way of creating a pipeline, because people who know your services will gravitate to the services they know and respect when they do need long-term care.

We also need much more interconnection between health and social care. In ten years' time, I'd like to see joined-up records, and much more focus on outcomes rather than organisations, so we can be really clear that the engagement we have with the person using a service is actually delivering something useful for them. One of the other things we've got to do is align success measures. At the moment, the different bits of the system are working to different success measures, and they don't harmonise. Actually, some of them conflict with one another. What makes a hospital successful is activity, whereas what we want is less activity in hospital and more enabling people to live well with their long-term conditions.

[38:00]

So I've now gone to three very high-level measures of success. The first is the person's experience: as a service user, how do I experience this service, and is it working for me? The second is outcomes. They might be health, social care, wellbeing or community connections, but they're really important for saying we're delivering something we can measure. Wellbeing is more difficult to measure, but we can measure it. The third measure should be the effective and efficient use of resources: using the resources to deliver the outcome in an effective and efficient way. If the whole system worked to those three high-level measures, with other measures beneath them, then I think we could have an integrated system that works well for citizens, whether they're service users or taxpayers. And usually people are both. We should acknowledge that people who use services are also taxpayers, whether it's the VAT you pay at the local shop or your income tax. So we're all invested in this, and we should all be getting the best outcome possible for the money, but also the best outcome possible for the citizen.

Tobi: I would love to see that implemented in the future. Professor Martin Green, I really appreciate you joining us on the show, and we'd love to have you back as well.

Martin: Thanks, Tobi. That'd be great.

Tobi: I completely agree with Martin's ambitious vision for the future. There's so much potential in the care sector, and we need to turn the challenges of the past year into opportunities for the future. Thank you, Professor Green, for joining me on the show, and thank you all at home for listening.

Before we go, just a few quick notes. Make sure you subscribe to the Tea with Tobi podcast so you automatically get notified about new episodes wherever you listen to podcasts. I want to know more about you and what you think of the show, so be sure to send me your comments at tobi@teawithtobi.com [now team@prosperwell.co.uk]. Please check out our website, teawithtobi.com, where you can find out more about me, our sponsor Meet My Brian, and what we do at Smooth Digital. I've started a newsletter that goes straight into your inbox, so do sign up on our website as well. You've been listening to Tea with Tobi, the podcast presented by me, Tobi Alli-Usman, and produced by One Fine Play. From One Fine Play, James Bishop is the executive producer, the audio and visual engineer is Kasra Farouzia, and Conor Foley is the producer and researcher, with additional creative support from Selina Christopher, Jade Cornish and Miranda Lopez. This episode was recorded by Conor Foley. Thanks for listening to Tea with Tobi.